DIAVOLO IS THE ORIGINAL
DIAVOLO IS THE ORIGINAL (and how reading Doppio is DESTROYS Diavolo character and symbolism)
blogger edition of this twitter thread (pastebin here)
I was originally ranting, "answering" someone who believes Doppio is the original. Canon points Diavolo IS. This is NOT a COPY PASTE, is a shorter version of the original thread/I fixed typos too/translated parts so everything is in english.
*************************************
[...] Doppio is NOT the original person, as he appear to be a teenager FOR A REASON, and the one who looks grown up is Diavolo FOR A REASON and Diavolo is described as THE TRUE FORM for a reason [...]
[...] Doppio COVERS UP DIAVOLO because SINCE YOUNG HE IS SO SECRETIVE ABOUT HIMSELF, so much he HIDES INSIDE HIMSELF,
[...] Doppio DIDN'T get Donatella pregnant
[...] he's surprised to have a daughter and he would OBVIOUSLY not be if he had f*cked Donatella [...], as I've always said he hasn't a regular DID he has two souls the fact you only see angry Diavs doesn't mean he's seductive too [...]
[DID = Dissociative Identity Dissorder]
or that he wasn't innocent back 15 YEARS AGO
basically what I am saying is that Diavolo got more and more secretive and Doppio is how he's still "himself" is where his (self percieved*) doubts and weaknesses lie, but [...] if we are talking about memories and separated personas:
DIAVOLO F*CKED DONATELLA
* 190701 addition: as Diavolo has other weakneses, most notable ones being too worried about Trish's existence and being to obssesed with power
Doppio doesn't seem to care about the photo for example while Diavolo says its HIS PAST [...]
Diavolo is such an underrated villain not even his fans comprehend him, [...]
I cant believe I who [...] has [a] Diavolo introject inside my head and who believes she's Doppio [...] gets to understand the canon material better [...]
[...] I can prove WITH CANON MATERIAL [...] you're wrong
[...] anime [...] just showed THE TRUE EXPLANATION (that thyere two souls, thanks for erasing the more "medical" explanation because HE ISN'T A D.I.D. CASE), but the timing? form was kinda poor and made ppl believe Doppio is the original
there's a small chance ["Doppio"] got traumatized after Donatella intercourse or that he got violent and got amnesia of those events but for that you gotta 1 accept Diavolo got [Doppio's] memories and 2 that he acts against him
no [direct, obvious] contradictions in the canon yet you would have to invent stuff
episode 26 showed you how - past DD [by DD i refer to DiavoloDoppio] was bullied - present Doppio gets treated badly
is not "ah is the same persona" no, here you got the insight of how good he was and how cruel ppl could be into his eyes and how he only trusted Donatella/himself
sometimes I hate how such good narrative gets read so poorly
the episode could lead you to realize that Doppio trusts Diavolo and only him because although he cares about people, it's not a reciprocal thing, so he cares more about animals, THIS HAPPENEDED TO DIAVOLO (HIMSELF) into past
is a parallelism, Doppio is Diavolo's PERSONALITY in the past not HIS PAST SELF or the real person, while DD doesn't suffer from Dissociative Disorder (the real thing) this is how Dissociative Disorder works and from where Araki got inspiration, separated souls yes but Doppio acts as past self because he's the YOUNG PERSONALITY representation, that's how it is in DID
(yet I keep saying he DOES NOT F*CKING HAVE DID because people with D.I.D. DON'T HAVE TWO SOULS, the fact that Araki got inspiration from real life doesn't mean he put the real thing into jjba)
I'm repeating myself so much because I keep remembering [...] Doppio fans that insist he's the one who f*cked Donatella please NO
what's your IN CANON explanation? that Diavolo retained his memories from her? that Doppio is some kind of prisoner of Diavolo???? SRLZ WHAT
I loved they added mystery to his birth scene but you ppl readed it as some kind of possession, ok, so far it's ok, but then you say Doppio f*cked Donatella
[i think] you would try to explain your [...] ideas with canon material I'll help you
you could have this idea Doppio f*cked her then Diavolo is so bad he destroyed everything so he doesn't put himself in risk BUT GUESS WHAT he would have killed Donatella [...]
Araki loves flashbacks he would have told this story so you guys could get Diavolo is some kind of yet unexplained evil spirit but guess what
this is not canon
canon is Diavolo or a not-yet-dissociated DD f*cked Donatella, the trigger is his father finding out his mother, his mother with an obvious indication of HER KNOWING THE TRUTH [about whatever matter but probably about his birth/or double soul thing] BECAUSE SHE GOT HER MOUTH SHUT, just as the kid DD takes before killing Abbacchio
[if] Doppio "existed" or not at that point he
didn't
f*cked
Donatella
[...]
[...]
Diavolo is such a beautiful villain
AND YOU MAKE DIAVOLO PLAIN BAD AND DOPPIO PLAIN "UKE" [...]
another thing
DD is not likely to be possessed -(190701 addition: i mean is a in canon possibility but i consider it the "theory that's suggested to add mystery but that's not true")
in CANON, DD was bullied, Doppio follows a similar pattern, DIAVOLO F*CKED DONATELLA, if you think about it they have the same personality [past Diavolo acts like present Doppio] so it would be weird to be a possessed person... possessed by someone who's just like him?
his soul got divided
this is so common in comics and literature, a fantasy explanation for a real thing
DD is a fantasy explanation for multiple personalities, so while it's unfair to call it D.I.D., he gets as much D.I.D. similarities as Araki could add, and he's the same person just divided souls (fantasy)
in a bigger scenario Doppio is there to make you empathise with him BUT ONLY to realize how bad a person could end (since he's Diavolo's young personality, PERSONALITY NO SELF) and how he could have done something about HIMSELF and be a better person just as GIORNO
like, do you remember that after all Diavolo represents evil and Giorno is basically Jesus
Vento Aureo doesn't recreate a lot on the religious symbolism but that's what it is, that's the thing
Araki doesn't make these extended symbolisms that could lead you to predict the series but he would destroy the DD/Giono parallel if he JUST MADE DOPPIO A VICTIM
[original thread has whatsapp messages ss i sent to my s/o, i'll translate em]
-- to make Diavolo just bad and Doppio just uke is to ignore that Diavolo was born a regular good boy who was abused and didn't know what to do due his character, so because of this (or maybe another reason) he got secretive, protects himself from EVERYONE, so if we make him just "bad" there's no more "oh i can understand him", you HAVE to understand him because everyone in Vento Aureo has a shitty past but Bruno's gang have "more morals"
-- Diavolo bad Doppio uke is to reduce them so much that idk how to explain this destroys them anymore
-- ikr i say this WITH THE DMN MANGA IN MY HAND, Diavolo had sex with Donatella, he remembers taking the photo he says it's his past, Doppio is the OTHER one
[end of whatsapp ss]
MORE
DOPPIO MEANS DOUBLE who's the extra eh
[...]
MORE
https://twitter.com/DoubleStarSoul/status/1125507780821995520
[sorry this is another private thread, I'll make a pastebin version soon but there I basically re-explained how D.I.D. "symptomps" shown are common sense for a narrator/common in dissociation in general; i basically pointed out (again) DD has a paranormal situation INSPIRED by D.I.D.]
[...]
but don't take my word on this, take Araki's
[manga ss text: When the cowardly Doppio is in Danger of having his identity discovered, the Boss's personality will appear / The Boss (True form)]
"The Boss' personality will appear. Once he calms down, he has no memory of what happened"
I mean this is CLEAR ENOUGH in the series but you forget this when it comes to WHO REMEMBERS DONATELLA. Diavolo. The fact that today Diavolo emerges when his identity is in danger doesn't prove Doppio is the "original", it proves Diavolo has become more and more secretive.
Diavolo's villain profile is "someone secretive who's success goes accordingly with his true identity remaining a secret; he (somehow, instinctively probably) knows this and does whatever it takes to accomplish his goal. As the mafia boss, not only his path but his goal are immoral. He's someone with lots of anger, most probably due his weak personality when younger. His anger and desire for control over others and what happens to him are portrayed in his stand, King Crimson."*
BUT NAH "DOPPIO IS THE ORIGINAL DIAVOLO IS BAD JUST BECAUSE- WHO CARES! HE'S EVIL! INSTEAD OF A CHARACTER BUILDING HIS FLASHBACK SHOWS US DOPPIO IS A BABY WE MUST PROTECT!!!!"
*Fun fact: I've several manga and anime instances that prove everything I said, I took in count EVERYTHING said about Diavolo and this has INNER COHERENCE because Diavolo is a fascinating, well built villain despite his short on-screen time.
Diavolo being able to "navigate" freely* when @ Requiem, it's the best valid in-(manga)-lore "proof" ppl have for Doppio being the original (specifically for Diavolo possessing Dopps), yet you have ALL the other stuff, plus I one could think of many explanations that fit the canon: Diavolo's just stronger / Requiem randomly leave Doppio in Bruno's body / they decided for their best that Diavolo had to stay (this is what Doppio kinda suggets) / etc
*190701 addition: by freely i meant that Diavolo had some kind of autonomy at requiem, at least, he seemed to pick who to posses
[...]
ALSO: Epitaph pretty much obviously represents Doppio
ALSO X2: Diavolo HAS to give Doppio his "soul scent" so Bruno sees him as Trish, Trish recognized Diavolo as his father, NOT DOPPIO
regarding on how Diavolo being free at Requiem COULD prove he possed Doppio [...]
is not that easy
i explained more about Diavolo leaving Doppio here
https://twitter.com/DoubleStarSoul/status/1136827094631997440
the linked thread just shows the umbrella of possibilities on why Diavolo leaves Doppio, is not that easy to jump to the conclusion that "this proves Doppio's the original"
Diavolo leaving does not equal to him not being the original as DD situation is more like this
https://twitter.com/xTARANTALLEGRAx/status/1137552945027792896
[linked tweets is in spanish but says: Diavolo/Doppio are attached to the same body and, Diavolo at least, can see what Doppio can't (let's say he can move his "soul" head or torso), this is why he sees without hisn corporeal eyes (in canon: fight vs Risotto and when facing Polnareff)]
190701 EDIT:
I almost forget this instance. When in (at?) requiem, Diavolo posses Trish's soul/stand. It's even explained that by moving her stand, he moves her. This is not how he "controls" Doppio (he acts by himself), but many could said that this is how he "posseses" him. Anime flashback supports the possesion theory.
Taking both anime and manga as canon. Anime episode 26 shows DD with ambar eyes and then with pinkish eyes for a split second (take not: not green as Diavolo's, pinkish). I know some people interpret this as him being possessed (and it could be the same "technique" he uses to posses Trish) but as I've said/suggested in this post before, I don't think that completely fits the narrative. It doesn't fit imo because DD is inspired in D.I.D. and having a trauma to develop a violent-self fits much better the "mysteryous past" and his "weak personality" rather than the "he's a victim possessed by a demon" thing (this is, however, much likely what his mother and father believe, please read this for a better insight). The trauma would have helped him to develop a violent and secretive personality (Diavolo), but it could or could not be the reason why such self was "born/created". I still support that the original (or more prominent, the one who's the "truest" owner of the body) is Diavolo (he still got violent and secretive due his hard past): he can posses Trish and acts similary when Doppio's conscious (being able to "see" what Doppio can't) because a body is not supposed to support two souls/or maybe because he's too strong/used to it.
My particular headcanon is that DD soul is divided/doubled since birth. Diavolo (as Solido, or whatever his name was) or a non-so-dissociated DD lives most of his own life; as time passes, DD trusts people less and less. At some point he just hides in himself - and this is when Doppio is "created"/becomes relevant/helps him. Is when strong dissociation starts.
blogger edition of this twitter thread (pastebin here)
I was originally ranting, "answering" someone who believes Doppio is the original. Canon points Diavolo IS. This is NOT a COPY PASTE, is a shorter version of the original thread/I fixed typos too/translated parts so everything is in english.
*************************************
[...] Doppio is NOT the original person, as he appear to be a teenager FOR A REASON, and the one who looks grown up is Diavolo FOR A REASON and Diavolo is described as THE TRUE FORM for a reason [...]
[...] Doppio COVERS UP DIAVOLO because SINCE YOUNG HE IS SO SECRETIVE ABOUT HIMSELF, so much he HIDES INSIDE HIMSELF,
[...] Doppio DIDN'T get Donatella pregnant
[...] he's surprised to have a daughter and he would OBVIOUSLY not be if he had f*cked Donatella [...], as I've always said he hasn't a regular DID he has two souls the fact you only see angry Diavs doesn't mean he's seductive too [...]
[DID = Dissociative Identity Dissorder]
or that he wasn't innocent back 15 YEARS AGO
basically what I am saying is that Diavolo got more and more secretive and Doppio is how he's still "himself" is where his (self percieved*) doubts and weaknesses lie, but [...] if we are talking about memories and separated personas:
DIAVOLO F*CKED DONATELLA
* 190701 addition: as Diavolo has other weakneses, most notable ones being too worried about Trish's existence and being to obssesed with power
Doppio doesn't seem to care about the photo for example while Diavolo says its HIS PAST [...]
Diavolo is such an underrated villain not even his fans comprehend him, [...]
I cant believe I who [...] has [a] Diavolo introject inside my head and who believes she's Doppio [...] gets to understand the canon material better [...]
[...] I can prove WITH CANON MATERIAL [...] you're wrong
[...] anime [...] just showed THE TRUE EXPLANATION (that thyere two souls, thanks for erasing the more "medical" explanation because HE ISN'T A D.I.D. CASE), but the timing? form was kinda poor and made ppl believe Doppio is the original
there's a small chance ["Doppio"] got traumatized after Donatella intercourse or that he got violent and got amnesia of those events but for that you gotta 1 accept Diavolo got [Doppio's] memories and 2 that he acts against him
no [direct, obvious] contradictions in the canon yet you would have to invent stuff
episode 26 showed you how - past DD [by DD i refer to DiavoloDoppio] was bullied - present Doppio gets treated badly
is not "ah is the same persona" no, here you got the insight of how good he was and how cruel ppl could be into his eyes and how he only trusted Donatella/himself
sometimes I hate how such good narrative gets read so poorly
the episode could lead you to realize that Doppio trusts Diavolo and only him because although he cares about people, it's not a reciprocal thing, so he cares more about animals, THIS HAPPENEDED TO DIAVOLO (HIMSELF) into past
is a parallelism, Doppio is Diavolo's PERSONALITY in the past not HIS PAST SELF or the real person, while DD doesn't suffer from Dissociative Disorder (the real thing) this is how Dissociative Disorder works and from where Araki got inspiration, separated souls yes but Doppio acts as past self because he's the YOUNG PERSONALITY representation, that's how it is in DID
(yet I keep saying he DOES NOT F*CKING HAVE DID because people with D.I.D. DON'T HAVE TWO SOULS, the fact that Araki got inspiration from real life doesn't mean he put the real thing into jjba)
I'm repeating myself so much because I keep remembering [...] Doppio fans that insist he's the one who f*cked Donatella please NO
what's your IN CANON explanation? that Diavolo retained his memories from her? that Doppio is some kind of prisoner of Diavolo???? SRLZ WHAT
I loved they added mystery to his birth scene but you ppl readed it as some kind of possession, ok, so far it's ok, but then you say Doppio f*cked Donatella
[i think] you would try to explain your [...] ideas with canon material I'll help you
you could have this idea Doppio f*cked her then Diavolo is so bad he destroyed everything so he doesn't put himself in risk BUT GUESS WHAT he would have killed Donatella [...]
Araki loves flashbacks he would have told this story so you guys could get Diavolo is some kind of yet unexplained evil spirit but guess what
this is not canon
canon is Diavolo or a not-yet-dissociated DD f*cked Donatella, the trigger is his father finding out his mother, his mother with an obvious indication of HER KNOWING THE TRUTH [about whatever matter but probably about his birth/or double soul thing] BECAUSE SHE GOT HER MOUTH SHUT, just as the kid DD takes before killing Abbacchio
[if] Doppio "existed" or not at that point he
didn't
f*cked
Donatella
[...]
[...]
Diavolo is such a beautiful villain
AND YOU MAKE DIAVOLO PLAIN BAD AND DOPPIO PLAIN "UKE" [...]
another thing
DD is not likely to be possessed -(190701 addition: i mean is a in canon possibility but i consider it the "theory that's suggested to add mystery but that's not true")
in CANON, DD was bullied, Doppio follows a similar pattern, DIAVOLO F*CKED DONATELLA, if you think about it they have the same personality [past Diavolo acts like present Doppio] so it would be weird to be a possessed person... possessed by someone who's just like him?
his soul got divided
this is so common in comics and literature, a fantasy explanation for a real thing
DD is a fantasy explanation for multiple personalities, so while it's unfair to call it D.I.D., he gets as much D.I.D. similarities as Araki could add, and he's the same person just divided souls (fantasy)
in a bigger scenario Doppio is there to make you empathise with him BUT ONLY to realize how bad a person could end (since he's Diavolo's young personality, PERSONALITY NO SELF) and how he could have done something about HIMSELF and be a better person just as GIORNO
like, do you remember that after all Diavolo represents evil and Giorno is basically Jesus
Vento Aureo doesn't recreate a lot on the religious symbolism but that's what it is, that's the thing
Araki doesn't make these extended symbolisms that could lead you to predict the series but he would destroy the DD/Giono parallel if he JUST MADE DOPPIO A VICTIM
[original thread has whatsapp messages ss i sent to my s/o, i'll translate em]
-- to make Diavolo just bad and Doppio just uke is to ignore that Diavolo was born a regular good boy who was abused and didn't know what to do due his character, so because of this (or maybe another reason) he got secretive, protects himself from EVERYONE, so if we make him just "bad" there's no more "oh i can understand him", you HAVE to understand him because everyone in Vento Aureo has a shitty past but Bruno's gang have "more morals"
-- Diavolo bad Doppio uke is to reduce them so much that idk how to explain this destroys them anymore
-- ikr i say this WITH THE DMN MANGA IN MY HAND, Diavolo had sex with Donatella, he remembers taking the photo he says it's his past, Doppio is the OTHER one
[end of whatsapp ss]
MORE
DOPPIO MEANS DOUBLE who's the extra eh
[...]
MORE
https://twitter.com/DoubleStarSoul/status/1125507780821995520
[sorry this is another private thread, I'll make a pastebin version soon but there I basically re-explained how D.I.D. "symptomps" shown are common sense for a narrator/common in dissociation in general; i basically pointed out (again) DD has a paranormal situation INSPIRED by D.I.D.]
[...]
but don't take my word on this, take Araki's
[manga ss text: When the cowardly Doppio is in Danger of having his identity discovered, the Boss's personality will appear / The Boss (True form)]
"The Boss' personality will appear. Once he calms down, he has no memory of what happened"
I mean this is CLEAR ENOUGH in the series but you forget this when it comes to WHO REMEMBERS DONATELLA. Diavolo. The fact that today Diavolo emerges when his identity is in danger doesn't prove Doppio is the "original", it proves Diavolo has become more and more secretive.
Diavolo's villain profile is "someone secretive who's success goes accordingly with his true identity remaining a secret; he (somehow, instinctively probably) knows this and does whatever it takes to accomplish his goal. As the mafia boss, not only his path but his goal are immoral. He's someone with lots of anger, most probably due his weak personality when younger. His anger and desire for control over others and what happens to him are portrayed in his stand, King Crimson."*
BUT NAH "DOPPIO IS THE ORIGINAL DIAVOLO IS BAD JUST BECAUSE- WHO CARES! HE'S EVIL! INSTEAD OF A CHARACTER BUILDING HIS FLASHBACK SHOWS US DOPPIO IS A BABY WE MUST PROTECT!!!!"
*Fun fact: I've several manga and anime instances that prove everything I said, I took in count EVERYTHING said about Diavolo and this has INNER COHERENCE because Diavolo is a fascinating, well built villain despite his short on-screen time.
Diavolo being able to "navigate" freely* when @ Requiem, it's the best valid in-(manga)-lore "proof" ppl have for Doppio being the original (specifically for Diavolo possessing Dopps), yet you have ALL the other stuff, plus I one could think of many explanations that fit the canon: Diavolo's just stronger / Requiem randomly leave Doppio in Bruno's body / they decided for their best that Diavolo had to stay (this is what Doppio kinda suggets) / etc
*190701 addition: by freely i meant that Diavolo had some kind of autonomy at requiem, at least, he seemed to pick who to posses
[...]
ALSO: Epitaph pretty much obviously represents Doppio
ALSO X2: Diavolo HAS to give Doppio his "soul scent" so Bruno sees him as Trish, Trish recognized Diavolo as his father, NOT DOPPIO
regarding on how Diavolo being free at Requiem COULD prove he possed Doppio [...]
is not that easy
i explained more about Diavolo leaving Doppio here
https://twitter.com/DoubleStarSoul/status/1136827094631997440
the linked thread just shows the umbrella of possibilities on why Diavolo leaves Doppio, is not that easy to jump to the conclusion that "this proves Doppio's the original"
Diavolo leaving does not equal to him not being the original as DD situation is more like this
https://twitter.com/xTARANTALLEGRAx/status/1137552945027792896
[linked tweets is in spanish but says: Diavolo/Doppio are attached to the same body and, Diavolo at least, can see what Doppio can't (let's say he can move his "soul" head or torso), this is why he sees without hisn corporeal eyes (in canon: fight vs Risotto and when facing Polnareff)]
190701 EDIT:
I almost forget this instance. When in (at?) requiem, Diavolo posses Trish's soul/stand. It's even explained that by moving her stand, he moves her. This is not how he "controls" Doppio (he acts by himself), but many could said that this is how he "posseses" him. Anime flashback supports the possesion theory.
(Image from VA chapter 143/JJBA chapter 582 where you can read: "Trish soul was being possessed!")
Taking both anime and manga as canon. Anime episode 26 shows DD with ambar eyes and then with pinkish eyes for a split second (take not: not green as Diavolo's, pinkish). I know some people interpret this as him being possessed (and it could be the same "technique" he uses to posses Trish) but as I've said/suggested in this post before, I don't think that completely fits the narrative. It doesn't fit imo because DD is inspired in D.I.D. and having a trauma to develop a violent-self fits much better the "mysteryous past" and his "weak personality" rather than the "he's a victim possessed by a demon" thing (this is, however, much likely what his mother and father believe, please read this for a better insight). The trauma would have helped him to develop a violent and secretive personality (Diavolo), but it could or could not be the reason why such self was "born/created". I still support that the original (or more prominent, the one who's the "truest" owner of the body) is Diavolo (he still got violent and secretive due his hard past): he can posses Trish and acts similary when Doppio's conscious (being able to "see" what Doppio can't) because a body is not supposed to support two souls/or maybe because he's too strong/used to it.
My particular headcanon is that DD soul is divided/doubled since birth. Diavolo (as Solido, or whatever his name was) or a non-so-dissociated DD lives most of his own life; as time passes, DD trusts people less and less. At some point he just hides in himself - and this is when Doppio is "created"/becomes relevant/helps him. Is when strong dissociation starts.
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